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	<title>Comments on: Beware the Seductive Side Trip</title>
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	<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip</link>
	<description>Novel Writing, Screenwriting and Storytelling Tips &#38; Fundamentals</description>
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		<title>By: Melissa</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4101</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jul 2010 01:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4101</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to have to respectfully disagree about sidetrips. I find them helpful, even if they don&#039;t end up being part of the finished novel.  Side trips teach me about character, and character is plot.

I agree that even as a &quot;pantser&quot; I plan to some extent. I study story structure, character archtypes, all aspects of craft. No writer should ever ignore the elements that build successful stories. I try to absorb those lessons so that they&#039;re bone marrow of how I write.  I don&#039;t always know where I&#039;m going as I&#039;m working on a story. Sometimes those side trips reveal something I didn&#039;t know, and that element, usually something character based, might just tell me how to shape the main narrative. Yes, that means I write a lot of drafts, and what some might call &quot;wasted effort&quot; but for me, that discovery process is essential. By the final draft they may be gone, but I couldn&#039;t write the story I&#039;m trying to tell without them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to have to respectfully disagree about sidetrips. I find them helpful, even if they don&#8217;t end up being part of the finished novel.  Side trips teach me about character, and character is plot.</p>
<p>I agree that even as a &#8220;pantser&#8221; I plan to some extent. I study story structure, character archtypes, all aspects of craft. No writer should ever ignore the elements that build successful stories. I try to absorb those lessons so that they&#8217;re bone marrow of how I write.  I don&#8217;t always know where I&#8217;m going as I&#8217;m working on a story. Sometimes those side trips reveal something I didn&#8217;t know, and that element, usually something character based, might just tell me how to shape the main narrative. Yes, that means I write a lot of drafts, and what some might call &#8220;wasted effort&#8221; but for me, that discovery process is essential. By the final draft they may be gone, but I couldn&#8217;t write the story I&#8217;m trying to tell without them.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony McFadden</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4096</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony McFadden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4096</guid>
		<description>Ah, in that previous post it was 9000 words, not works.

I can barely manage 1 work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, in that previous post it was 9000 words, not works.</p>
<p>I can barely manage 1 work.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony McFadden</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4094</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony McFadden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:02:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4094</guid>
		<description>Ah, you did it again.

This cinched it for me: &quot;...those who write to publish, and those who write for themselves...&quot;

I&#039;ve written enough for myself. I&#039;m writing to publish now.

I&#039;ve discovered an interesting side-effect of the planning process. It&#039;s one you don&#039;t explicitly mention, but all writers should love it. And it&#039;s inherent in planning your story.

I&#039;ve started a new mystery. I&#039;m using Scrivener, which makes the planning process very easy. (If you&#039;re not familiar with it, this screen shot is a pretty good representation: http://www.literatureandlatte.com/screens4.html) I set up 4 sections (called, naturally, Setup, Response, Attack and Resolution) and plopped 10 &#039;chapters&#039; in each section, 3000 words (targeted) each. I&#039;m aiming for a finished product with 100k words. After edits. And clean ups.

In the cork board layout seen in that link, I put three or four sentences describing what had to happen in each &#039;chapter&#039;.

For the first three sections. 

While I know the general resolution of the story, I honestly can&#039;t tell how it will unfold yet. When the first draft of the first three sections is complete, I&#039;ll be able to map the resolution.

Now here&#039;s the beautiful, inherent side-effect.  

There is NO writer&#039;s block. 

If the scene on the beach with the knife fight isn&#039;t working, if I can&#039;t get the flow, if I&#039;m not sure how to weave in the anxiety felt by the hero&#039;s girlfriend during the fight, convincingly, I can drop it for the moment and move to the next 3000 word block, the courtroom scene, where the public defender makes a mess of things and the hero&#039;s girlfriend just barely makes it out on bail. I CAN write 3000 words about that.

And when the mood strikes and will go back to that knife fight. Maybe after watching a Jet Li movie for inspiration.

Because everything is mapped (or planned) at a marco level I have been burning through the first draft. 

Bearing in mind that I have a full time job and many weekend parental responsibilities (I can&#039;t skip all of them) I put down almost 9000 works from Friday night to Sunday night.

And some of them were good words.

No more pantsing for me. The last one I pantsed I&#039;ve abandoned.  I estimated it would take longer to fix it than it would take to write a new one. (The plots are different and the main characters are different, but some of the secondary characters are showing up.)

Thanks again, Larry.  Not a life-saver, but definitely a time (and sanity) saver.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, you did it again.</p>
<p>This cinched it for me: &#8220;&#8230;those who write to publish, and those who write for themselves&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve written enough for myself. I&#8217;m writing to publish now.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve discovered an interesting side-effect of the planning process. It&#8217;s one you don&#8217;t explicitly mention, but all writers should love it. And it&#8217;s inherent in planning your story.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve started a new mystery. I&#8217;m using Scrivener, which makes the planning process very easy. (If you&#8217;re not familiar with it, this screen shot is a pretty good representation: <a href="http://www.literatureandlatte.com/screens4.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.literatureandlatte.com/screens4.html</a>) I set up 4 sections (called, naturally, Setup, Response, Attack and Resolution) and plopped 10 &#8216;chapters&#8217; in each section, 3000 words (targeted) each. I&#8217;m aiming for a finished product with 100k words. After edits. And clean ups.</p>
<p>In the cork board layout seen in that link, I put three or four sentences describing what had to happen in each &#8216;chapter&#8217;.</p>
<p>For the first three sections. </p>
<p>While I know the general resolution of the story, I honestly can&#8217;t tell how it will unfold yet. When the first draft of the first three sections is complete, I&#8217;ll be able to map the resolution.</p>
<p>Now here&#8217;s the beautiful, inherent side-effect.  </p>
<p>There is NO writer&#8217;s block. </p>
<p>If the scene on the beach with the knife fight isn&#8217;t working, if I can&#8217;t get the flow, if I&#8217;m not sure how to weave in the anxiety felt by the hero&#8217;s girlfriend during the fight, convincingly, I can drop it for the moment and move to the next 3000 word block, the courtroom scene, where the public defender makes a mess of things and the hero&#8217;s girlfriend just barely makes it out on bail. I CAN write 3000 words about that.</p>
<p>And when the mood strikes and will go back to that knife fight. Maybe after watching a Jet Li movie for inspiration.</p>
<p>Because everything is mapped (or planned) at a marco level I have been burning through the first draft. </p>
<p>Bearing in mind that I have a full time job and many weekend parental responsibilities (I can&#8217;t skip all of them) I put down almost 9000 works from Friday night to Sunday night.</p>
<p>And some of them were good words.</p>
<p>No more pantsing for me. The last one I pantsed I&#8217;ve abandoned.  I estimated it would take longer to fix it than it would take to write a new one. (The plots are different and the main characters are different, but some of the secondary characters are showing up.)</p>
<p>Thanks again, Larry.  Not a life-saver, but definitely a time (and sanity) saver.</p>
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		<title>By: Mayowa</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4093</link>
		<dc:creator>Mayowa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4093</guid>
		<description>Howdy Larry,

Just found your site through problogger, I&#039;m enjoying myself already.

&quot;work only if the pantser understands story structure to an extent that what pours out of their head aligns with those principles&quot;

This I think is the crucial tip for getting out of the pantsing void alive and sane. I think ideas that come bubble up out of the random chaos of pantsing should ALWAYS be checked against those principles because they are  a great filter for the side trip bait/spam that can come out of pantsing.

I laughed when I saw your &quot;polarizing guy&quot; comment. That is still very much my MO (I have post called I Hate Babies) and it is a mixed (but very interesting) bag.

Thanks for the great post</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Howdy Larry,</p>
<p>Just found your site through problogger, I&#8217;m enjoying myself already.</p>
<p>&#8220;work only if the pantser understands story structure to an extent that what pours out of their head aligns with those principles&#8221;</p>
<p>This I think is the crucial tip for getting out of the pantsing void alive and sane. I think ideas that come bubble up out of the random chaos of pantsing should ALWAYS be checked against those principles because they are  a great filter for the side trip bait/spam that can come out of pantsing.</p>
<p>I laughed when I saw your &#8220;polarizing guy&#8221; comment. That is still very much my MO (I have post called I Hate Babies) and it is a mixed (but very interesting) bag.</p>
<p>Thanks for the great post</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4092</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4092</guid>
		<description>@Tim - One of the best part&#039;s about it is you can use them as promotional material to give away (or even sell) to help promote a new book coming out if you sell (or self publish) and double dip on the time spent!  Hard to get much more win-win.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tim &#8211; One of the best part&#8217;s about it is you can use them as promotional material to give away (or even sell) to help promote a new book coming out if you sell (or self publish) and double dip on the time spent!  Hard to get much more win-win.</p>
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		<title>By: Kelly</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4091</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4091</guid>
		<description>Hello, Larry. (And Tim, too). Kelly here.

First, I read (inhaled, actually) &quot;Whisper of the Seventh Thunder.&quot; Really liked it, think Dan Brown better watch out...
About pants/plants/planned-- it&#039;s starting to sound like gardening! Gotta have structure, &#039;nuf said.
About side trips-- when writing a book and tempted to write a sidetrip, do it if you must (and if you have the time), and put it in a separate file for your own entertainment, not in the book. Keeps plot moving, and no separation anxiety over &quot;losing&quot; part of your manuscript.
22 drafts? That&#039;s at least 16 more that I&#039;d have lived through before novel went in file cabinet, not to be seen for many years...
Regards (glad you&#039;re back!) Kelly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, Larry. (And Tim, too). Kelly here.</p>
<p>First, I read (inhaled, actually) &#8220;Whisper of the Seventh Thunder.&#8221; Really liked it, think Dan Brown better watch out&#8230;<br />
About pants/plants/planned&#8211; it&#8217;s starting to sound like gardening! Gotta have structure, &#8216;nuf said.<br />
About side trips&#8211; when writing a book and tempted to write a sidetrip, do it if you must (and if you have the time), and put it in a separate file for your own entertainment, not in the book. Keeps plot moving, and no separation anxiety over &#8220;losing&#8221; part of your manuscript.<br />
22 drafts? That&#8217;s at least 16 more that I&#8217;d have lived through before novel went in file cabinet, not to be seen for many years&#8230;<br />
Regards (glad you&#8217;re back!) Kelly</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Baker</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4090</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4090</guid>
		<description>@Patrick - I like that idea...I think I&#039;ll have to give that a try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Patrick &#8211; I like that idea&#8230;I think I&#8217;ll have to give that a try.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4089</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4089</guid>
		<description>Something I&#039;m starting to do as writing prep, and will probably do for these Side Trips as well, is simply put them into a short story instead.  Good way to explore the characters and if non-standard fiction the world as well.  It&#039;s turning into my form of &quot;note making&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something I&#8217;m starting to do as writing prep, and will probably do for these Side Trips as well, is simply put them into a short story instead.  Good way to explore the characters and if non-standard fiction the world as well.  It&#8217;s turning into my form of &#8220;note making&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce H. Johnson</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4088</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce H. Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 17:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4088</guid>
		<description>Side trips can be fun, no doubt about it. I spent several hours on a side trip, then went back and spent a half hour junking all the references to it.

Even back then as a pantser, I realized none of it contributed to the story. I &quot;got it out of my system&quot; and proved to myself I could do it.

Just because you can do something doesn&#039;t mean you should. I&#039;m now on the path of &quot;if it doesn&#039;t contribute, it&#039;s freeloading&quot; and it&#039;s outta there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Side trips can be fun, no doubt about it. I spent several hours on a side trip, then went back and spent a half hour junking all the references to it.</p>
<p>Even back then as a pantser, I realized none of it contributed to the story. I &#8220;got it out of my system&#8221; and proved to myself I could do it.</p>
<p>Just because you can do something doesn&#8217;t mean you should. I&#8217;m now on the path of &#8220;if it doesn&#8217;t contribute, it&#8217;s freeloading&#8221; and it&#8217;s outta there.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Morin</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/beware-the-seductive-side-trip/comment-page-1#comment-4086</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Morin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 15:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2837#comment-4086</guid>
		<description>Larry,

I appreciate the effort you put into helping people understand the cost associated with the storytelling path they choose.  I started as a total pantser for all the reasons you talk about (didn&#039;t understand the right structure, thought I could do it because some writers make it look easy, etc).  I spent 4 years on my first novel, re-writing and developing my talents and understanding of this industry.  Many drafts resulted.  I committed to becoming a writer, and to the learning cycle of the road I&#039;d chosen.  Over time, I&#039;ve learned the right structure, and had to throw away almost half a million words and totally re-start.  The new novel is significantly better.  The cost was high, but it was worth it.  I&#039;m polishing it now, and hope to submit it to agents/editors in a couple of months.

Over time, I have moved up the spectrum from pantser to planner.  For my second novel, I&#039;ll probably be 80% planner, 20% pantser.  I can&#039;t afford to take 4 years again.

I do pants as a write, and sometimes I take those side-trips.  At times, they have become wonderful creative processes that have revealed previously unexplored aspects of the worlds I build.  When that happens, I have to go back and re-design the story to incorporate the revelation.  Again, there&#039;s a cost.  But it&#039;s worth it sometimes.  When it&#039;s not, I delete the side-trip and continue on the original path.  You&#039;re right - there&#039;s no other way to deal with it:  either embrace it and make the necessary adjustments, or set it aside and move on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry,</p>
<p>I appreciate the effort you put into helping people understand the cost associated with the storytelling path they choose.  I started as a total pantser for all the reasons you talk about (didn&#8217;t understand the right structure, thought I could do it because some writers make it look easy, etc).  I spent 4 years on my first novel, re-writing and developing my talents and understanding of this industry.  Many drafts resulted.  I committed to becoming a writer, and to the learning cycle of the road I&#8217;d chosen.  Over time, I&#8217;ve learned the right structure, and had to throw away almost half a million words and totally re-start.  The new novel is significantly better.  The cost was high, but it was worth it.  I&#8217;m polishing it now, and hope to submit it to agents/editors in a couple of months.</p>
<p>Over time, I have moved up the spectrum from pantser to planner.  For my second novel, I&#8217;ll probably be 80% planner, 20% pantser.  I can&#8217;t afford to take 4 years again.</p>
<p>I do pants as a write, and sometimes I take those side-trips.  At times, they have become wonderful creative processes that have revealed previously unexplored aspects of the worlds I build.  When that happens, I have to go back and re-design the story to incorporate the revelation.  Again, there&#8217;s a cost.  But it&#8217;s worth it sometimes.  When it&#8217;s not, I delete the side-trip and continue on the original path.  You&#8217;re right &#8211; there&#8217;s no other way to deal with it:  either embrace it and make the necessary adjustments, or set it aside and move on.</p>
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