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	<title>Comments on: Can the First Plot Point Happen Without the Hero Knowing?</title>
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	<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing</link>
	<description>Novel Writing, Screenwriting and Storytelling Tips &#38; Fundamentals</description>
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		<title>By: Monica Rodriguez</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4072</link>
		<dc:creator>Monica Rodriguez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 01:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4072</guid>
		<description>So, don&#039;t know if anyone sees comments from earlier posts, so here&#039;s to finding out. 

I&#039;m reading Stephen King&#039;s Salem&#039;s Lot. First time reading it. Haven&#039;t seen the movie. Don&#039;t know the plot or the end. 

I now mark off the pages where a Plot Point should happen when I start a new book - to see if it follows the structure. I was really stumped w/ Salem&#039;s Lot&#039;s First Plot Point. (I&#039;m not even half way thru the book, so I&#039;m not looking back w/ hindsight yet.) I thought maybe the FPP was off a little bit, but there was nothing else close enough. 
Something does happen at the Plot Point point. It&#039;s when the son of one of the villagers dies. He&#039;s the brother of the boy who had disappeared only weeks before. It was a very quiet scene. Which is fine. But the protagonist IS NOT aware of the FPP, not aware of his change in mission. And NEITHER IS THE READER - because I&#039;ll be damned if I know what&#039;s going on yet. I can&#039;t see how the boy&#039;s death changes anything. I&#039;m sure it will be shown later to be a harbinger of ...everything, perhaps. But where I&#039;m at, coming up at the First Pinch Point spot, I&#039;ve got nothing. 

So, is this a rare example of a FPP that happens w/o the reader OR protagonist&#039;s knowledge?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, don&#8217;t know if anyone sees comments from earlier posts, so here&#8217;s to finding out. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m reading Stephen King&#8217;s Salem&#8217;s Lot. First time reading it. Haven&#8217;t seen the movie. Don&#8217;t know the plot or the end. </p>
<p>I now mark off the pages where a Plot Point should happen when I start a new book &#8211; to see if it follows the structure. I was really stumped w/ Salem&#8217;s Lot&#8217;s First Plot Point. (I&#8217;m not even half way thru the book, so I&#8217;m not looking back w/ hindsight yet.) I thought maybe the FPP was off a little bit, but there was nothing else close enough.<br />
Something does happen at the Plot Point point. It&#8217;s when the son of one of the villagers dies. He&#8217;s the brother of the boy who had disappeared only weeks before. It was a very quiet scene. Which is fine. But the protagonist IS NOT aware of the FPP, not aware of his change in mission. And NEITHER IS THE READER &#8211; because I&#8217;ll be damned if I know what&#8217;s going on yet. I can&#8217;t see how the boy&#8217;s death changes anything. I&#8217;m sure it will be shown later to be a harbinger of &#8230;everything, perhaps. But where I&#8217;m at, coming up at the First Pinch Point spot, I&#8217;ve got nothing. </p>
<p>So, is this a rare example of a FPP that happens w/o the reader OR protagonist&#8217;s knowledge?</p>
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		<title>By: yvette davis</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4050</link>
		<dc:creator>yvette davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jul 2010 05:24:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4050</guid>
		<description>Wendi, Your reply reminded me of something. I&#039;ve never seen A Beautiful Mind (gasp! I know!) but what about the Diving Bell and the Butterfly? What if the first plot point - the game changer - is something that the protag can do absolutely nothing about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wendi, Your reply reminded me of something. I&#8217;ve never seen A Beautiful Mind (gasp! I know!) but what about the Diving Bell and the Butterfly? What if the first plot point &#8211; the game changer &#8211; is something that the protag can do absolutely nothing about?</p>
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		<title>By: Wendi Kelly</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4048</link>
		<dc:creator>Wendi Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4048</guid>
		<description>This is so interesting that it makes me want to try it. If I wasn&#039;t knee deep in editing and writing already I think I would.

I&#039;m glad you worked through this because my first reaction would have been  a clear-cut no. 

But then...isn&#039;t a story like A Beautiful Mind an example of something like this?  Or..then again...maybe not.... maybe it further confuses the issue.
The hero and the audience wasn&#039;t let in on the real story for quite some time. Hmmm. Back to coffee.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is so interesting that it makes me want to try it. If I wasn&#8217;t knee deep in editing and writing already I think I would.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you worked through this because my first reaction would have been  a clear-cut no. </p>
<p>But then&#8230;isn&#8217;t a story like A Beautiful Mind an example of something like this?  Or..then again&#8230;maybe not&#8230;. maybe it further confuses the issue.<br />
The hero and the audience wasn&#8217;t let in on the real story for quite some time. Hmmm. Back to coffee.</p>
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		<title>By: yvette davis</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4045</link>
		<dc:creator>yvette davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jul 2010 04:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4045</guid>
		<description>Well what about a misleading PP1? The hero thinks X just happened but we all know that Y just happened. Hero sets off into response to X mode and we shudder, knowing that Y is going to come and kick his silly arse to Tuesday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well what about a misleading PP1? The hero thinks X just happened but we all know that Y just happened. Hero sets off into response to X mode and we shudder, knowing that Y is going to come and kick his silly arse to Tuesday.</p>
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		<title>By: Monica</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4040</link>
		<dc:creator>Monica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:47:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4040</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this, Larry. I&#039;ve had the same question bounce around my head a number of times. Good to know.

Maybe after FFP, you can talk a little about Midpoint? A few examples maybe? My MP is sucking wind big time. Just in case you&#039;re taking requests. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this, Larry. I&#8217;ve had the same question bounce around my head a number of times. Good to know.</p>
<p>Maybe after FFP, you can talk a little about Midpoint? A few examples maybe? My MP is sucking wind big time. Just in case you&#8217;re taking requests. <img src='http://storyfix.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Shane Arthur</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4039</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 17:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4039</guid>
		<description>Reminds me of &lt;i&gt;Who is Harry Crumb&lt;/i&gt; and the Pink Panter Movies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reminds me of <i>Who is Harry Crumb</i> and the Pink Panter Movies.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce H. Johnson</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4038</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce H. Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4038</guid>
		<description>Might be an interesting way to work with a sub-plot. Probably depends a lot on the POV (1st-person, third-person all-knowing, etc.).

I can see situations in which the environment actually changes (PP1) and the protagonist doesn&#039;t really know it. Congress does this all the time by passing far-reaching laws which affect a lot of our lives. We, the &quot;ordinary characters/citizens&quot; don&#039;t realize the consequences until much later, and often don&#039;t even know the law was put into force.

The stakes actually do change whether or not the protagonist knows they have.

The key is that the reader has to know. We (the reader) knows the monster is lurking in the basement, yet the protagonist doesn&#039;t know. She still investigates the noise in a diaphanous nighty and with a candle. &quot;Didn&#039;t know the gun was loaded&quot; applies.

PP1 needs to be exactly where it belongs so the reader knows things have changed. If the protagonist doesn&#039;t really know, he may have to start reacting to unknown circumstances. Part of the response needs to be him figuring out what&#039;s really going on so the MidPoint shift to attack works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Might be an interesting way to work with a sub-plot. Probably depends a lot on the POV (1st-person, third-person all-knowing, etc.).</p>
<p>I can see situations in which the environment actually changes (PP1) and the protagonist doesn&#8217;t really know it. Congress does this all the time by passing far-reaching laws which affect a lot of our lives. We, the &#8220;ordinary characters/citizens&#8221; don&#8217;t realize the consequences until much later, and often don&#8217;t even know the law was put into force.</p>
<p>The stakes actually do change whether or not the protagonist knows they have.</p>
<p>The key is that the reader has to know. We (the reader) knows the monster is lurking in the basement, yet the protagonist doesn&#8217;t know. She still investigates the noise in a diaphanous nighty and with a candle. &#8220;Didn&#8217;t know the gun was loaded&#8221; applies.</p>
<p>PP1 needs to be exactly where it belongs so the reader knows things have changed. If the protagonist doesn&#8217;t really know, he may have to start reacting to unknown circumstances. Part of the response needs to be him figuring out what&#8217;s really going on so the MidPoint shift to attack works.</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4033</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 03:39:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4033</guid>
		<description>This is my WiP!  The Antagonist, believe it or not, is an 8mo baby, &amp; my MC has detemined babies are not in her life.  Anyway, this set-up (a FPP that isn&#039;t a FPP, but it is, etc) fits my story exactly!  Thanks for the validation (&amp; lots besides).  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is my WiP!  The Antagonist, believe it or not, is an 8mo baby, &amp; my MC has detemined babies are not in her life.  Anyway, this set-up (a FPP that isn&#8217;t a FPP, but it is, etc) fits my story exactly!  Thanks for the validation (&amp; lots besides).  <img src='http://storyfix.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: kelly</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4032</link>
		<dc:creator>kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 03:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4032</guid>
		<description>Larry. And Patrick.
Sounds like a first plot line segment instead of a first plot point! :)
How ironic that the movie &quot;Coma&quot; could be used as an example. As I read that when it first came out (and it wasn&#039;t yesterday) will go peruse bookcase. Not sure I ever had DVD.
More caffeine, and perhaps chocolate now, too...
Kelly</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry. And Patrick.<br />
Sounds like a first plot line segment instead of a first plot point! <img src='http://storyfix.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
How ironic that the movie &#8220;Coma&#8221; could be used as an example. As I read that when it first came out (and it wasn&#8217;t yesterday) will go peruse bookcase. Not sure I ever had DVD.<br />
More caffeine, and perhaps chocolate now, too&#8230;<br />
Kelly</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://storyfix.com/can-the-first-plot-point-happen-without-the-hero-knowing/comment-page-1#comment-4031</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jul 2010 02:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://storyfix.com/?p=2810#comment-4031</guid>
		<description>One thing I thought of after my original comment.  If you&#039;re going to try something along the lines of what I mentioned before, it might be a good idea to put it closer to the 20% mark than the 25% because you can use those couple thousand words to start setting up the character realizing something has changed, even if they do not know what it is, yet, without short changing the reaction portion of the story too much/at all.

In a way it&#039;s almost a form of extending the FPP.  The one particular moment is THE FPP, but the scenes right after it build the context from the character&#039;s PoV and begin to show the reader AND the character the consequences of that moment, ramping things up for the run to the mid point.

Hm, I may have to see if I can come up with a way to play with this, either in my next Novel (current one is already past the FPP, and the rewrite necessary to try that would wreck the work, so no way ;)) or the one after, depending on how the next idea would take to such a gambit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I thought of after my original comment.  If you&#8217;re going to try something along the lines of what I mentioned before, it might be a good idea to put it closer to the 20% mark than the 25% because you can use those couple thousand words to start setting up the character realizing something has changed, even if they do not know what it is, yet, without short changing the reaction portion of the story too much/at all.</p>
<p>In a way it&#8217;s almost a form of extending the FPP.  The one particular moment is THE FPP, but the scenes right after it build the context from the character&#8217;s PoV and begin to show the reader AND the character the consequences of that moment, ramping things up for the run to the mid point.</p>
<p>Hm, I may have to see if I can come up with a way to play with this, either in my next Novel (current one is already past the FPP, and the rewrite necessary to try that would wreck the work, so no way <img src='http://storyfix.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> ) or the one after, depending on how the next idea would take to such a gambit.</p>
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