Comments on: Story Structure Series: #8 – The Second Plot Point http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point Novel Writing, Screenwriting and Storytelling Tips & Fundamentals Sun, 20 May 2012 23:50:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Larry http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-85023 Larry Sun, 20 May 2012 05:20:49 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-85023 @Anne - a good question. The "lull" is positioned just before the 2nd PP, as you suggest (70% being a great spot for it). But... none of this is set in stone. For example, you can have as many "lulls" (seemingly hopeless moments) as you like, and the one right before the 2PP (which is optional, as is all of this; that said, it's also "optimal," so we depart from that if not at our peril, then hopefully with informed confidence in the exception) can last well beyond the 2PP into Part 4. It's the blending and balancing that becomes the "art" of storytelling... the architecture paradigm is there as a baseline and an optimal default, something we can use, tweak or otherwise change as we see fit. Thing is, for the most part, the best stories usually don't. Hope this helps -- L. @Anne – a good question. The “lull” is positioned just before the 2nd PP, as you suggest (70% being a great spot for it). But… none of this is set in stone. For example, you can have as many “lulls” (seemingly hopeless moments) as you like, and the one right before the 2PP (which is optional, as is all of this; that said, it’s also “optimal,” so we depart from that if not at our peril, then hopefully with informed confidence in the exception) can last well beyond the 2PP into Part 4. It’s the blending and balancing that becomes the “art” of storytelling… the architecture paradigm is there as a baseline and an optimal default, something we can use, tweak or otherwise change as we see fit. Thing is, for the most part, the best stories usually don’t. Hope this helps — L.

]]> By: Anne http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-85011 Anne Sun, 20 May 2012 00:16:37 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-85011 Hi Larry, I've read your story engineering book, going over the section of FPP, pinch points, middle, SPP in detail, but now I seem to have it muddled as to where does the point where all seems lost come in? You say it's right before the SPP, but how soon before? Is it immediately before? Say at 70%, or even a bit later? I have a part in my novel where it looks like the heroine is losing, like she won't move forward and will give up. Where does that come in? And does her transition to Martyr to part 4 where she learns something, can it be where she learns that transition of what's been holding her back? Where she overcomes her fears? I think I've just been running around in circles trying to figure out my outline. Thanks, Anne Hi Larry,
I’ve read your story engineering book, going over the section of FPP, pinch points, middle, SPP in detail, but now I seem to have it muddled as to where does the point where all seems lost come in? You say it’s right before the SPP, but how soon before? Is it immediately before? Say at 70%, or even a bit later? I have a part in my novel where it looks like the heroine is losing, like she won’t move forward and will give up. Where does that come in? And does her transition to Martyr to part 4 where she learns something, can it be where she learns that transition of what’s been holding her back? Where she overcomes her fears?
I think I’ve just been running around in circles trying to figure out my outline.
Thanks,
Anne

]]> By: Carol http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-51263 Carol Fri, 02 Sep 2011 14:27:44 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-51263 L, Thank you for answering with my persistence! But I asked if that suspicion (that it was the heroine's friend betraying her) would qualify as the pp2 or the actual confrontation (when she is more sure). I'm assuming you meant in your answer that I had it right, then, that the first suspicions of her friend would qualify as the pp2? Yes, I have an accelerating story to the end, but I have a subplot I'm trying to deal with also so that it comes together with the main plot at this point. It's getting complicated for me, as I have several elements regarding the themes in the story. I don't even know for sure now if that pp2 is most important because the "real" theme is my heroine's ability to put her past behind her to gain the freedom to live the life she really wants to live. So I don't know if I should be looking, instead, for the sentences I used to that idea.?? The subplot actually deals with this, though. I may have it all backwards! (My midpoint was that she found these love letters, by the way, with no idea who wrote them at the time--no name on them.) Meanwhile, with all this going on, she has been seeing a male friend, and that friendship has grown to love by the end! And yes, she does solve her own problems. Am I making any sense? I've started reading your deconstruction of Sutter Island, and that is helping, too. Thank you for being so open to helping me. If you don't want to, you don't have to answer, but I sure do appreciate your comments! Carol L,
Thank you for answering with my persistence! But I asked if that suspicion (that it was the heroine’s friend betraying her) would qualify as the pp2 or the actual confrontation (when she is more sure). I’m assuming you meant in your answer that I had it right, then, that the first suspicions of her friend would qualify as the pp2?
Yes, I have an accelerating story to the end, but I have a subplot I’m trying to deal with also so that it comes together with the main plot at this point. It’s getting complicated for me, as I have several elements regarding the themes in the story. I don’t even know for sure now if that pp2 is most important because the “real” theme is my heroine’s ability to put her past behind her to gain the freedom to live the life she really wants to live. So I don’t know if I should be looking, instead, for the sentences I used to that idea.?? The subplot actually deals with this, though. I may have it all backwards! (My midpoint was that she found these love letters, by the way, with no idea who wrote them at the time–no name on them.) Meanwhile, with all this going on, she has been seeing a male friend, and that friendship has grown to love by the end! And yes, she does solve her own problems.

Am I making any sense? I’ve started reading your deconstruction of Sutter Island, and that is helping, too. Thank you for being so open to helping me. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to answer, but I sure do appreciate your comments!
Carol

]]> By: Larry http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-51198 Larry Fri, 02 Sep 2011 04:03:00 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-51198 @Carol -- sounds good. It would also make a good mid-point (new context for the story), but certainly seems to be a great 2ndPP, as well. Just make sure you have enough story left after that point, giving your hero (a genderless term, in this case) enough to do (chase down, conquer, whatever) and demonstrate both courage and character arc in doing so. Remember, the hero ALWAYS the primary catalyst (force) in the resolution of the story. Hope this helps, wishing you great success! Don't hesitate to ask anything, anytime. I don't have all the answers, but I'll give 'em a shot. L. @Carol — sounds good. It would also make a good mid-point (new context for the story), but certainly seems to be a great 2ndPP, as well. Just make sure you have enough story left after that point, giving your hero (a genderless term, in this case) enough to do (chase down, conquer, whatever) and demonstrate both courage and character arc in doing so. Remember, the hero ALWAYS the primary catalyst (force) in the resolution of the story.

Hope this helps, wishing you great success! Don’t hesitate to ask anything, anytime. I don’t have all the answers, but I’ll give ‘em a shot. L.

]]> By: Carol http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-51184 Carol Fri, 02 Sep 2011 01:22:09 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-51184 Thank you for clearing up some of this for me. It's a little clearer, anyhow! See, I do have this new information that comes in (a friend's betrayal). Prior to this info, the heroine only knows SOMEONE has betrayed her, and at this point, she only has suspicions it's her best friend, not a sure thing yet. Will that qualify then as the pp2? Or is it the moment she actually confronts her (which I currently have as a climax, a big showdown.) Between those points her suspicions grow--so is that considered even MORE NEW info? Thanks, Carol Thank you for clearing up some of this for me. It’s a little clearer, anyhow! See, I do have this new information that comes in (a friend’s betrayal). Prior to this info, the heroine only knows SOMEONE has betrayed her, and at this point, she only has suspicions it’s her best friend, not a sure thing yet. Will that qualify then as the pp2? Or is it the moment she actually confronts her (which I currently have as a climax, a big showdown.) Between those points her suspicions grow–so is that considered even MORE NEW info?
Thanks,
Carol

]]> By: Larry http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-51121 Larry Thu, 01 Sep 2011 14:40:36 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-51121 @Carol -- the 2nd PP, the climax and the denouement can -- and often should be -- different things occuring at different places in the sequence of your novel. Working backwards... the denouement - which CAN also be the climax -- is when resolution is achieved. The climax (when it isn't the denouement) is the action or occurance that results in resolution, which in this case is punctuated with "meaning" by the denouement, which is the close. All that said, none of this is the 2nd PP. That occurs at about the 75th percentile, and is the last Big Twist, the final insertion of new information, the thing that lights the fuse toward the countdown that ends up at the climax and/or the resolution. (Check out my deconstructions here on Storyfix, expecially "Shutter Island," then rent the DVD to see it unfold before your eyes.) For example, in the film "Tombstone" (I use films because they're quicker to analyze and easier to spot the milestones, and yet, offer the same structure as novels), the 2nd PP occurs (at the right place) when Kurt Russell deputizes himself. That changes everything (a hallmark of both PPs). But it's not the climax or the denouement, nor is it any type of resolution (in fact, the 2nd PP is NEVER resolution)... it's what enables, starts and empowers the story -- THROUGH THE INSERTION OF NEW INFORMATION -- to begin heading toward those moments. Hope this helps. L. @Carol — the 2nd PP, the climax and the denouement can — and often should be — different things occuring at different places in the sequence of your novel.

Working backwards… the denouement – which CAN also be the climax — is when resolution is achieved.

The climax (when it isn’t the denouement) is the action or occurance that results in resolution, which in this case is punctuated with “meaning” by the denouement, which is the close.

All that said, none of this is the 2nd PP. That occurs at about the 75th percentile, and is the last Big Twist, the final insertion of new information, the thing that lights the fuse toward the countdown that ends up at the climax and/or the resolution. (Check out my deconstructions here on Storyfix, expecially “Shutter Island,” then rent the DVD to see it unfold before your eyes.)

For example, in the film “Tombstone” (I use films because they’re quicker to analyze and easier to spot the milestones, and yet, offer the same structure as novels), the 2nd PP occurs (at the right place) when Kurt Russell deputizes himself. That changes everything (a hallmark of both PPs). But it’s not the climax or the denouement, nor is it any type of resolution (in fact, the 2nd PP is NEVER resolution)… it’s what enables, starts and empowers the story — THROUGH THE INSERTION OF NEW INFORMATION — to begin heading toward those moments.

Hope this helps. L.

]]> By: Carol http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-51117 Carol Thu, 01 Sep 2011 14:27:17 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-51117 Hi, I have your book and have been trying to re-work my novel. Most of it fits right where you indicate, but I'm having trouble with the Plot Point 2 vs. the climax, where everything has come to a head. Doesn't the climax come very late, and then it's get out soon with the denouement? If then I have some surprising (new) news in my climax, wouldn't that come too late to be a PP2? (In a 400 pg book, pp2 by pg 300 latest, but the climax comes around p. 380.) I'm confused now between the terms. Carol Hi,
I have your book and have been trying to re-work my novel. Most of it fits right where you indicate, but I’m having trouble with the Plot Point 2 vs. the climax, where everything has come to a head. Doesn’t the climax come very late, and then it’s get out soon with the denouement? If then I have some surprising (new) news in my climax, wouldn’t that come too late to be a PP2? (In a 400 pg book, pp2 by pg 300 latest, but the climax comes around p. 380.) I’m confused now between the terms.

Carol

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]]> By: Larry http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-8034 Larry Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:44:28 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-8034 @Mike -- you ask a good question here. First, "new" information in the fourth part (a "final twist") can work if there is context and basis for it, including foreshadowing. What wouldn't work, for example, is some unexpected new rule of ESP physics that suddenly, at the end, explains everything. That'd be a cheat. I love the Saw films, they really push the line, but be clear -- the concept and the juice of that film isn't literary. This is the risk area where very commercial Hollywood movies push the lines and take liberties with the principles that you and I cannot take. Just make sure your final twists are based on groundwork you've established -- including the rules of the world you've created -- and you'll be solid. Hope this helps. @Mike — you ask a good question here. First, “new” information in the fourth part (a “final twist”) can work if there is context and basis for it, including foreshadowing. What wouldn’t work, for example, is some unexpected new rule of ESP physics that suddenly, at the end, explains everything. That’d be a cheat. I love the Saw films, they really push the line, but be clear — the concept and the juice of that film isn’t literary. This is the risk area where very commercial Hollywood movies push the lines and take liberties with the principles that you and I cannot take.

Just make sure your final twists are based on groundwork you’ve established — including the rules of the world you’ve created — and you’ll be solid. Hope this helps.

]]> By: Mike http://storyfix.com/story-structure-series-8-%e2%80%93-the-second-plot-point/comment-page-1#comment-7990 Mike Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:29:29 +0000 http://storyfix.com/?p=679#comment-7990 Where does "the final twist" fall in this structure? The Saw series comes to mind as an example. At the very end, there's a final reveal of information that changes the viewer's perspective of the whole movie, and in fact the preceding movies. But if no new information can be revealed in Part 4 - where does this fit? Where does “the final twist” fall in this structure? The Saw series comes to mind as an example. At the very end, there’s a final reveal of information that changes the viewer’s perspective of the whole movie, and in fact the preceding movies. But if no new information can be revealed in Part 4 – where does this fit?

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